Charles:
That is why belittling [which you are NOT doing right now] is absolutely wrong. It does nothing to uncover the real truth just to put the other person on the defensive so they will forget to keep discussing the issues.
Let's take your final statement below as an example.
Most atheists believe absolutely there is no God. They also usually believe absolutely in no absolutes. Somewhat of a conundrum. However there is usually MORE than one way to see things.
The 6 Blind Men of Hindustan comes to mind. I am quoting this because you are giving absolutely one answer below instead of the alternatives. And your ONE answer is always slanted in your bias against Christians beliefs. Do you even know you are biased or do you have the attitude of most atheists that you have a superior reasoning power and anyone who is Christian believes in leprechauns and fairies?
There were six men of Hindustan,
to learning much inclined,
Who went to see an elephant,
though all of them were blind,
That each by observation
might satisfy his mind.
might satisfy his mind.
The first approached the elephant,
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
"This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall."
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
"This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall."
The second, feeling of the tusk,
cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear."
cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear."
The third approached the elephant,
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
"I see," quoth he,
"the elephant is very like a snake."
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
"I see," quoth he,
"the elephant is very like a snake."
The fourth reached out an eager hand,
and felt above the knee,
"What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain" said he,
"'Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree."
and felt above the knee,
"What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain" said he,
"'Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree."
The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan."
said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan."
The sixth no sooner had begun
about the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
"I see," said he, "the elephant
is very like a rope."
So six blind men of Hindustanabout the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
"I see," said he, "the elephant
is very like a rope."
disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
exceeding stiff and strong;
Though each was partly in the right,
they all were in the wrong!
I will take your statement first. Time is limited but here ....
"If you believe in Jesus you may come to the conclusion that those that killed him are hated in the sight of God and need to be killed. This seems to be the conclusion of Martin Luther according to his writings and also of Adolph Hitler according to his.
If you are an Atheist and don't believe in God or Jesus Christ why would you hate Jews and call them the murderers of Christ. There would be no action to take."
Martin Luther like you and I and all humanity is flawed. We are far from perfect, we make mistakes. Some of those mistakes are just mistakes or misunderstandings. Others are called by the Bible "sin" because society will break down if they become the accepted practice as you have seen it doing since the 60's. Divorces, runaways, broken families, drugs and much more are all commonplace now.
Was Martin Luther perfect? Not on your life! I totally know that his anti-semitic attitude was wrong. Does that mean we write off everything he did? You have the choice to write off people and ideas if you wish, but I cannot.
I don't write you off because you are an agnostic disguised as an atheist. There is still hope for you.
Luther's contribution was to break the corruption in the then Roman Catholic church and declare that "faith" not all the rituals were the answer to belief in God. That was his contribution. Was he right? Sure. Were all his followers right? Not on your life.
Let's take your statement one part at a time to uncover the truth.
"If you believe in Jesus you may come to the conclusion that those that killed him are hated in the sight of God and need to be killed."
OR you may NOT come to that conclusion at all.
But if you do, how can you then believe in the 10 Commandments one of which says to not commit murder and how can you believe Jesus who said, that those that live by the sword will die by the sword. How could a Christian believe Jesus and commit murder when they have the example of Jesus stopping Peter after he cut off a Roman ear?
When you fragment the truth, instead of looking at the whole teachings of Yeshua, you get a lie just as when you separate the hydrogen from the water, you do not have water any more.
Second Part:
My comment: What if you are a Christian and believe there is NO action to take?If you are an Atheist and don't believe in God or Jesus Christ why would you hate Jews and call them the murderers of Christ. There would be no action to take."
That is me and many others. In fact many Jews in and out of Israel realize that evangelical Christians are their best friends. I belong to an organization called IPW [Israel Prayer Watch]. We meet monthly and pray for over 70 Christian ministries in Israel who are there to help the downtrodden and the have-nots. That comes from what Jesus said when he was in the synagogue very early in his ministry and this happened.
Most Christians [or the PREPONDERANCE of Christians (:-)] would tell you THAT is what Christianity is mainly about. That is why there are so many Christian organizations and/or churches doing exactly that.
Luke 4:14-21
14 Then Jesus, filled with the power of the Spirit, returned to Galilee, and a report about him spread through all the surrounding country. 15He began to teach in their synagogues and was praised by everyone.
16 When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
18 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour.'
20 And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21Then he began to say to them, 'Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'
So what action do you take to benefit the world Brian, as an agnostic-atheist? Just asking.
The above scripture explains Albert Schweitzer, Mother Theresa, Mark and Hilda Buntain and countless more. Those are just ones that stand out in my mind right now.
If you read more about Hitler on the wiki or elsewhere you will see that he left the teachings of Christianity and formed his own set of beliefs like atheists do, which feels right according to their intelligence" and therefore became an "A-theist" = without God. Not blaming all atheists for Hitler but he was one as he created his own "religion" or set of beliefs.
There is certainly no need to cover the other famous atheists who destroyed great masses of people in USSR, Africa and East Asia.
-Charles
Brian's Comments:
[My comments are in BOLD after Brian's point]
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, BC wrote:
When you believe something strongly it can be a call to action. OR NOT
If you believe in ghosts it may drive you to run from the spooky house when you hear a noise.You may hold a seance to contact a dear departed. OR NOT
If you don't believe in ghosts there is no action to take.
If you believe in communism you may fight and kill to force those who don't to accept your belief or die for the common good of all.
If you don't believe in communism and no one is forcing you to then there is no action to take.
If you believe in Jesus you may come to the conclusion that those that killed him are hated in the sight of God and need to be killed. This seems to be the conclusion of Martin Luther according to his writings and also of Adolph Hitler according to his.
[So Brian are you saying that ALL atheists are NOT ANTI-JEWISH? Be ABSOLUTELY SURE before you answer even if you believe in NO ABSOLUTES. Time to 'man up' and realize that EVERYBODY BELIEVES IN SOME ABSOLUTES, ABSOLUTELY!]If you are an Atheist and don't believe in God or Jesus Christ why would you hate Jews and call them the murderers of Christ. There would be no action to take. OR NOT
It is hard to create an action from a disbelief. INCLUDING GOOD ACTIONS!
That's why I doubt Hitler was an atheist or that Stalin and the rest did the evil that they did in the name of disbelief. It's nonsensical. If you substitute communism for religion and promote it like a religion and make your leaders into the divine like in North Korea. Then you've just created the religion of communism which can be used to drive action. Atheism by itself does not and can not lead one to major action like war and genocide.
Brian you can doubt anything you want but THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOUR DOUBT TRUTH.
Brian you are living in a Bubble of self-imposed indoctrination if you believe that !It is obvious Hitler was an atheist. He made up his own religion just like atheists. How much more evidence do you need than this:
You won't find this idea in Christianity [comes from Wiki above]
"To the extent he believed in a divinity, Hitler did not believe in a "remote, rationalist divinity" but in an "active deity,"[72] which he frequently referred to as "Creator" or "Providence". In Hitler's belief God created a world in which different races fought each other for survival as depicted by Arthur de Gobineau. The "Aryan race," supposedly the bearer of civilization, is allocated a special place:
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race ... so that our people may mature for the fulfilment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. ... Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence.[72]
^ "Closely related to his support of education was his tolerant skepticism concerning religion. He looked upon religion as a series of conventions and as a crutch for human weakness [rather like atheistic beliefs] , but, like most of his neighbors, he insisted that the women of his household fulfill all religious obligations. He restricted his own participation to donning his uniform to take his proper place in festivals and processions. As he grew older Alois shifted from relative passivity in his attitude toward the power and influence of the institutional Church to a firm opposition to "clericalism," especially when the position of the Church came into conflict with his views on education." - Bradley F. Smith: Adolf Hitler: His Family, Childhood and YouthStanford/California, 1967 p. 27OR Hitler's contact to Lanz von Liebenfels makes it necessary to examine how far his religious views were influenced by Ariosophy, an esoteric movement in Germany and Austria that flourished from the 1890s to the 1920s. (Whether Ariosophy is to be classified as Germanic paganism or Occultismis a different question.) The seminal work on Ariosophy, The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, devotes its last chapter the topic of Ariosophy and Adolf Hitler. Not at least due to the difficulty of sources, historians disagree about the importance of Ariosophy for Hitler's religious views. As noted in the foreword of The Occult Roots of Nazism by Rohan Butler, Goodrick-Clarke is more cautious in assessing the influence of Lanz von Liebenfels on Hitler than Joachim Fest in his biography of Hitler.[78] A Hitler biography by John Toland that appeared in 1992 reprints a poem that Hitler allegedly wrote while serving in the German Army on the Western Front in 1915.[79] This poem includes references to magical runes and the pre-Christian Germanic deity Woden, but it is mentioned neither by Goodrick-Clarke nor by Fest.
While he was in power, Hitler was definitely less interested in the occult or the esoteric than other Nazi leaders. Unlike Heinrich Himmler and Rudolf Hess, for example, Hitler had no interest in astrology. Nevertheless, Hitler is the most important figure in the Modern Mythology of Nazi occultism. There are teledocumentaries about this topic, with the titles Hitler and the Occult and Hitler's Search for the Holy Grail.[80]
OR
Brian. Only someone looking to blindly blame Hitler on religion would come up with such an idea that he was NOT ATHEISTIC. Again .... Hitler made up his OWN SET OF BELIEFS. So do atheists. Do you see a connection?
The atheistic "religion" has formed its own beliefs mainly concerning the non-existence of God. Hitler made up his own religion relating to superior races [sounds a bit like Dawkins and C. Hitchens], and inferior beings [those that disagree with you or don't understand your beliefs].
That is why undoubtedly he was atheistic .... he made up his own religion.
Christianity on the other hand got theirs from the son of God, Yeshua.
Stalin and communism were and are the largest atheistic-state-believing nations of all time!
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